A new found Electronic ignition system!

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A new found Electronic ignition system!

Postby Blurredman » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:01 am

Hi Guys,


In the pursuit of the various types of electronic ignitions found on MZ's over the years, I have recently found one that is in my opinion quite brilliant.

As you may know, most of the type of ignitions, whether it be aftermarket, or one of the 2/3 original German types found in 251's (and later ones with Turkish built machines with another type as standard implemented in the stator unit), are what is called Hall Effect type sensor. And in short is a magnet on a rotor on the end of the crankshaft that as it passes the timing plate interupts signal. The sendor unit itself on the plate is typically a simple transistor, which is what gets effected by the magnetic field of the passing rotor. This is a reliable and well developed system and found on most vehicles, depending on quality/new price of the car since at least the 80's. Other types of systems include Infra-red as a common alternative, and indeed a home-makable. These work by the LED being interupted but by a key in the cam rotor that allows it to be passed (to fire). These were also common as kits for retro-active on 6v systems as sold by Burwins for example. Problem with Infared/LED systems is both dirt/debree and liquid (ie Rain) can interfere with timing.

Original type box as found in 251 wiring diagrammes. They are quite large, and there are not too many around anymore. However MZ-B do make re-production modules of exact inside wiring. However, the reproduction item I had was very much substandard- Indeed, it prevented the battery from charging at all when in use! I'm not a fan of the direct reproduction replacements provided by lots of companies (those include regulators and coils etc).
Image

All the units I can find, original or otherwise have a box associated with the 'kit' that contains the electronics. Whether this is the large plastic box containing mid-80's tech resistors, transistors and diodes etc, or a later type.
Lots of you I am sure are using the PowerDynamo systems sold by MZ-B. But they are an expensive bit of kit, as they include stator and rotor and a few other items, that I do see the positive side of (for example- it is a self exciting bike with this system installed).


2 years ago I purchased this aftermarket system, which does have electronic box I have mentioned a little bit before. It does however have the benefit over the original factory system of a much more substantial cooling system, as well as 10/15 second coil signal shut off and an LED, helping you identify your timing much more precisely. I have used this for 10,000 miles now and I have not had any problems with it. It is reliable, consistent and maintenance free which is what everybody wants in timing :-D

Image


Recently my friend in Hungary showed me this item, which I have also seen on one or two youtube videos in various guises:
Image

It has a major component that is not including the LED timing light on the board (where you would want it if anywhere). But it has all the electronic components found inside those large boxes, on the timing plate itself! There is but one wire in the kit, as well as the sendor rotor. Fiddly wiringharnesses!? Seems that has gone. You re-locate the coil wire that comes from condensor on the contact breaker set, to one of the terminals on the timing plate, and the included wire connects the other terminal to the other contact on the coil.
The lack of components in this new system means that it is actually quite cheap too! The electronic ignition I already have with the large aluminium cooling fin system on the box and the 6 wires to connect up was £65. This new system from Muller Electronics was £40, delivered from Hungary.



Now... Do not get me wrong - I am currently reserving judgement, as I am going to install this new contactless ignition soon. This post is a write up on my experiences with this new electronic ignition and a review. The only downfall I can see in the small print (at the moment) is that max voltage this item can withstand is 16v DC. Which to me is a very close tolerance to potentially being blown and unusable if your charging system is not on par! As all other electronic ignitions other than PowerDynamo, this item is only a direct replacement to the points and does not at all interfere with the charging system bar 20mA draw.


Watch this space!
1973 MZ ES250/2 - 17,000 miles
1979 Suzuki TS185ER - 9,000 miles
1981 Honda CX500B - 91,000 miles
1987 MZ ETZ300 - 38,000 miles
1989 MZ ETZ251 - 50,000 miles

ftp://blurredmanswebsite.ddns.net/Vehicle_Documents/MZ_Documents/
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Re: A new found Electronic ignition system!

Postby Puffs » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:25 am

Following a moderator choice that is IMO biased and flawed (someone posting aggressive personal attacks is rewarded, while my technical posts are removed), I have withdrawn from this forum.
Last edited by Puffs on Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A new found Electronic ignition system!

Postby Guesi » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:40 pm

Hello

I used the first igniton in your post for some thousand kilometers without problem.

But we decided to develop our own ignition.

It is simple and easy to install, has no blackbox,everything it needs is on the plate on the alternator,and can be used for 6 and 12 V systems(the only difference is the adaptor for the camshaft. It works down to 3,5 Volt . And up to 10.000 revs.It also has an LED for adjusting the ignition timing.
And you can return to contact breaker within 20 minutes (in the unbelievable case you have problems with the electronic ignition and you are far far away from home).
Lima6V3.jpg


DSCI3555.JPG


The hungarian ignition I do NOT recommend. It works with light sensors, so the engine does not run when sunlight shines on the ingition system...They use a plastic ring which they put over the cam. A part of this ring is painted white.
Each time this part comes near the optic sensor, the spark is initiated.
Not really the actual state of the art :-)
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http://www.guesi-motorradteile.de
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Re: A new found Electronic ignition system!

Postby Puffs » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:25 am

Following a moderator choice that is IMO biased and flawed (someone posting aggressive personal attacks is rewarded, while my technical posts are removed), I have withdrawn from this forum.
Last edited by Puffs on Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A new found Electronic ignition system!

Postby Blurredman » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:21 am

I knew there must be other people working on such items, I had seen it.



Well, the unit is on my machine (albeit with timing problems but that is another matter).

It was obviously extremely easy to put on the bike.

The green wire that comes from terminal 1 on the coil was relocated to the appropriate spade connector on the plate. And the accompanied wire (albeit a few inches too short for some nice and neat out of sight routing), was put on the other spade connection and the 15 terminal on the coil.

Obviously the cam was put on and the plate tightened up. To time, as always I do:

Ignition on, this lights up the timing light LED to a half brightness. As you move the plate back and forth you can find that once the timing point has been reached the spark has occured the light brightens to full luminosity and then extinguishes completely. Find 2.7mm BTDC, adjust plate. Spark occurs, tighten up plate. As easy as any other machine, but with the benefit of the timing light being exactly where you would need to look- Not on a black box that is situated elsewhere on the bike (if your black box has one at all).

As you ride, the timing light will be constantly flashing, It's pretty cool. And if you have a problem with black box than these items, including Guesi's one would be very good. One thing that came to mind when fitting the cam was that on most other electric systems, they remind you of a certain gap requirement between cam and the sensor on the board. Most are around 1-1.5mm or so and come with spacers, if needed. There was no mention of gap requirements with the Hungarian instructions provided.


Now.. I actually intend to use contact breaker on my older machine (because I want to keep originallity on it), BUT. With both machines that I own having either electronic ignition or Contact breakers, I would Definately be taking the Muller black box less ignition with me everywhere incase of failure of either system. As easy a system to install, and taking up so little space.. It's definately worth it, I think to keep one on you incase the worst should happen. 8) 8)
1973 MZ ES250/2 - 17,000 miles
1979 Suzuki TS185ER - 9,000 miles
1981 Honda CX500B - 91,000 miles
1987 MZ ETZ300 - 38,000 miles
1989 MZ ETZ251 - 50,000 miles

ftp://blurredmanswebsite.ddns.net/Vehicle_Documents/MZ_Documents/
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Re: A new found Electronic ignition system!

Postby Puffs » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:11 am

Following a moderator choice that is IMO biased and flawed (someone posting aggressive personal attacks is rewarded, while my technical posts are removed), I have withdrawn from this forum.
Last edited by Puffs on Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A new found Electronic ignition system!

Postby Blurredman » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:16 am

Puffs wrote:You say that in other systems "they remind you of a certain gap requirement between cam and the sensor on the board. Most are around 1-1.5mm or so and come with spacers, if needed. There was no mention of gap requirements with the Hungarian instructions provided.". Specification of the gap is to make sure that the magnetic field is at the required strength for the Hall sensor; field strength is very dependent on distance. An optical sensor is not so sensitive to distance.

On how the system works: I understand it worked well, but that it did not solve your main problem, and therefore you can not really test it well.



I can confirm this and will get back to it. But.. I don't think there is any issue with this kit. I'm pretty sure it's hall effect and not optical too. It is magnetised and going over a transistor.

The hungarian system Guesi is talking about is another type I do believe. Those Hungarians are quite pro-active.
1973 MZ ES250/2 - 17,000 miles
1979 Suzuki TS185ER - 9,000 miles
1981 Honda CX500B - 91,000 miles
1987 MZ ETZ300 - 38,000 miles
1989 MZ ETZ251 - 50,000 miles

ftp://blurredmanswebsite.ddns.net/Vehicle_Documents/MZ_Documents/
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Re: A new found Electronic ignition system!

Postby Blurredman » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:36 am

I must confirm that this is a Hall Effect type ignition. And, thus far has worked flawlessly.. 8)

Only thing is you have to bend the terminal contacts angle slightly to avoid interfering with the generator cover. But that's no biggy.
1973 MZ ES250/2 - 17,000 miles
1979 Suzuki TS185ER - 9,000 miles
1981 Honda CX500B - 91,000 miles
1987 MZ ETZ300 - 38,000 miles
1989 MZ ETZ251 - 50,000 miles

ftp://blurredmanswebsite.ddns.net/Vehicle_Documents/MZ_Documents/
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Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:59 pm
Location: South Wales

Re: A new found Electronic ignition system!

Postby Guesi » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:48 am

Puffs wrote:Hi Guesi,

Do you feel the Vmax = 16V is an issue? What is the maximum voltage for your system?



Max. Voltage is 24 Volt.

And what is the "Müller" ignition ?
Guesi Motorradteile
MZ spare parts
http://www.guesi-motorradteile.de
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Re: A new found Electronic ignition system!

Postby Puffs » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:33 am

Following a moderator choice that is IMO biased and flawed (someone posting aggressive personal attacks is rewarded, while my technical posts are removed), I have withdrawn from this forum.
Last edited by Puffs on Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A new found Electronic ignition system!

Postby Guesi » Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:09 am

No it does not.
Also, I don´t think that this backward firing is a problem on electronic nor contact breaker systems if the ignition timing is set correctly.
Guesi Motorradteile
MZ spare parts
http://www.guesi-motorradteile.de
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Re: A new found Electronic ignition system!

Postby Puffs » Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:33 am

Following a moderator choice that is IMO biased and flawed (someone posting aggressive personal attacks is rewarded, while my technical posts are removed), I have withdrawn from this forum.
Last edited by Puffs on Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A new found Electronic ignition system!

Postby Guesi » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:22 am

I mean that if the ignition timing is correctly set on 2,7-3,0 mm before TDC, there is no running backwards, no matter what type of ignition you use.
I experienced this phenomenon only when the timing was not exactly set.
And the risk of timing change is higher on a contact breaker system because of wearing of the contact breaker.

So as a friend of mine says:
If we try we can make a problem out of it....
Guesi Motorradteile
MZ spare parts
http://www.guesi-motorradteile.de
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Re: A new found Electronic ignition system!

Postby Puffs » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:03 am

Following a moderator choice that is IMO biased and flawed (someone posting aggressive personal attacks is rewarded, while my technical posts are removed), I have withdrawn from this forum.
Last edited by Puffs on Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A new found Electronic ignition system!

Postby arny » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:41 pm

Talking of electronic ignition, there is an interesting one by a Romanian company Gotronic. The best feature is the very affordable price - about 30 euro. It has been recommended to me by certain MZ and Jawa owners who have tried it and reported they're very satisfied by it, so I'm considering to try it myself.

It is hall-sensor based and features a timing LED, and since it even uses the original cam (that's for MZ, Jawa needs another one) so it is very easy to set up and also easy to switch back to points if it fails. It's also made to work with several old car models including Trabant, although it's 12 V only so it won't work with older MZ models. The only other drawback I can see is that it has a separate box, but it may not be all that bad - a separate control box can be located near the ignition coil which means the main current to it runs a much shorter path than with points, which means less inductive resistance and less electronic interference.
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